How did Red Skull determine who someone's parent was on Vormir?

Basically the title.

In IW he calls Gamora the "daughter of Thanos" who obviously isn't her biological father, presumably just because she spent more time being raised by Thanos than by her biological father.

But then in Endgame when Clint and Nat go to Vormir he calls her "daughter of Ivan" even though she never even knew her biological father's name and would have thus spent more time with Alexei growing up (albeit still not much time, but at least she remembers him).

Why so inconsistent?

Commentaires

bloodyell762025-12-28 08:01

Connection to the soul stone.

yosayoran2025-12-28 19:10

/thread

VaderOnReddit2025-12-28 19:35

wibbley wobbley infinity stoney stuff

Niel152025-12-28 19:48

I goes ding when someone gets sacrificed.

cjn132025-12-28 20:07

It can also boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not.

MBDTFTLOPYEEZUS2025-12-28 21:29

Something with Pym Particles

wizardeverybit2025-12-28 22:05

Don't blink

Owain6602025-12-28 08:03

He's probably an all knowing being that is tied to the soul stone.

raisingcuban2025-12-28 21:54

This has nothing to do with what OP is asking.

He's asking why she was called "daughter of thanos" when that's not her true biological father.

NewspaperHelpful65002025-12-29 00:15

I dont think the soul stone particular cares if its a blood relation

CapnRogersNbrhood2025-12-28 08:03

He read the script.

AntRid2025-12-28 08:40

And how did he know what to say? The words were written down for him

lookofdisdain2025-12-28 09:32

There will no scripts on the day!

GillGruntFan532025-12-28 10:11

“Marquad, Marquad, Marquad **ACTION! RED SKULL! HEIL HYDRA! CUT!** Marquad, Marquad, Marquad…”

Alarmed_Drop71622025-12-28 17:16

![gif](giphy|kEzh1SgTROWT9PXAPl)

SlumdogSkillionaire2025-12-28 20:01

_Red Skull screams, disappointed._

"DISAPPOINTED!"

TheTwelfthLaden2025-12-28 08:58

He used Robin Hood's power?

ShutterBug19882025-12-28 10:16

I lost! I lost? I'm not supposed to lose! Let me see the script...

dcab872025-12-28 09:46

Are you saying he's just an actor?

![gif](giphy|hzrvwvnbgIV6E)

Character-Pirate12972025-12-28 13:58

“AN ACTOR? A DISGUSTING ACTOR?”

Grape_Appropriate2025-12-28 14:16

Claramente são atores

LazyLurker292025-12-28 08:04

I imagine it has something to do with being the Soul Stone's "guardian", so to speak; that he can "read" people to an extent (and perhaps how they feel about their parents), float like a wraith, live for so long...I wouldn't be surprised if these were, literally, properties of the soul stone, passed down to him in his servitude.

Creative-Improvement2025-12-28 13:09

I think maybe he tried to get to the soulstone illegitimate and he got cursed to be the guardian? That sounds like Red Skull. He does tell us he was also looking for them. 80 years is a long time.

MaleficentCoach66362026-01-04 17:42

yes, he tries touching the Space Stone/Tesseract in the movie and gets his physical body banished and his soul cursed forever. the Space Stone made him a spirit/ghost and sent his soul to the Soul's stone resting place.

the universe basically told him 'no you are not worthy and now you are cursed to forever explain why others are not worthy.'

justins_dad2025-12-28 08:04

Soul stone

ChildofObama2025-12-28 08:05

He’s been stuck there 80 years and has nothing better to do, so he spies on people with the Soul Stone.

Bartghamilton2025-12-28 08:35

He knows if you’ve been sleeping. He knows when you’re awake. He knows if you’ve been in the bathroom alone too long, so hurry up for goodness sake!

Arahor2025-12-28 09:41

[Why Do You Think I Wear Red? ](https://youtu.be/OC1jdTqqWtk)

Sunshine1452025-12-28 08:06

ITT: People who can't read.

LeoAtrox2025-12-28 08:10

The rumor has it that they were thinking of working Ivan Romanoff into Nat's backstory in the Black Widow movie and ultimately didn't do that. In the original Black Widow story (the comics, I mean, not some unused version of the film) Ivan was also not her biological father, but a man who rescued and adopted her. So, the canon reason for Red Skull invoking Ivan's name remains a mystery, but the reality is that it was probably meant as an Easter egg or a plot thread for the future Black Widow movie ... My guess would actually be that it was an Easter egg; but there is that rumor ...

Fi1thyMick2025-12-28 08:11

Gamora thought of Thanos as a father. Nat did not feel like that about Alexei. I'm pretty sure that was only like 2 years of her childhood.

drd-domino2025-12-28 08:14

Correct me if I'm wrong but that was the only father she ever knew

Fi1thyMick2025-12-28 08:17

She considered herself fatherless or an orphan essentially is how I took it. It's a plot point in Black Widow that she didn't feel the same familial connection that Yelena felt. Unless I was reading into that more than I should have but it seemed like she's said it a few different times

EcksFountain1322025-12-28 08:50

She didn't consider Melina her mother either because she was old enough to remeber her life before Ohio. IIRC there was actually a conversation about her birth mom. Natasha grew up in an orphanage and was told her mom abandoned her. Melina said she actually tried to track Nat down but when she got too close Melina betrayed her to Dreykov.

Sapphire-Girl-252025-12-28 08:50

“It wasn’t real”

“It was real to me”

EcksFountain1322025-12-28 08:59

I think it was more the case that Nat wanted it to be real because it was better than what she had before so she went along with it.

_dontjimthecamera2025-12-28 09:06

Didn’t Yelena say the “it was real to me” line? It would track that Nat didn’t think of it as real but Yelena did, hence why Nat didn’t see Alexei as a father figure.

EcksFountain1322025-12-28 10:24

Yeah it was. Yelena was only 3 when she was taken to Ohio whereas Natasha was 9. Meaning that Yelena wasn't old enough to remember her life before that but Natasha was.

Tremerefury2025-12-28 10:34

Didn't Nat later say it was real to her too? I felt like she said it wasn't real as a sort of defense/ coping mechanism.

checker2802025-12-28 11:18

May was referring to her relationship to Yelena not her relationship to Alexei

Tremerefury2025-12-28 11:36

May? Do you mean Nat or am I forgetting a character? It's been a while since I saw that movie.

EcksFountain1322025-12-28 11:41

I believe I might have commented above but although Natasha knew it wasn't real she pretended it was as a coping mechanism because it was the first time she'd ever been happy.

Tremerefury2025-12-28 11:44

That's my impression, too.

FDVP2025-12-28 16:55

Nat comes to accept they are her family. The Avengers showed her the way. It’s her final lesson and act of defying Red Room indoctrination.

EcksFountain1322025-12-28 17:51

Yes she does, you're right. But people were commenting on how she didn't mention Alexei on Vormir when Endgame is set after BW. The problem of course is that it was made \*before\* Black Widow so Alexei didn't exist yet.

Seuter2025-12-28 18:34

The implication was that no matter how hard Nat tried, she was too old to lie to herself. Yelena was young enough to believe it until it fell apart.

fireandlifeincarnate2025-12-28 13:09

That felt more like Yelena being her sister than the entire family being her family

PerilousWorld2025-12-28 17:16

Side note… Yelena’s character development is my absolute favorite thing in the MCU, and Florence Pugh knocks it out of the park.

Fi1thyMick2025-12-28 19:20

Yea I fucking love Yelena. I'm hoping her and Kate get some more time so they can be the new team of Hawkeye and Black Widow. They're both funny, talented and have huge shoes to fill. I really hope marvel doesn't forget Kate

spidervenom6192025-12-28 09:14

There is other option that isn't as popular as Ivan Romanoff theory but Ivan could be Dreykov since we don't know his first name unless it's General lol.

Plus Dreykov do see all of the Widows and even some of his soldiers as his "Children", it could easily be similar to Gamora's Situation that Thanos took over as the "Main" Parent over Gamora's Mom.

MajorNoodles2025-12-28 13:45

Natasha says in the movie (Endgame, not Black Widow) that she has no idea who her father is.

spidervenom6192025-12-29 03:58

Which is a major reason why I don't think Mr. Romanoff is Ivan, again It's doesn't make logical sense for Natasha to be the only one who has a character that she's only meet for like 5 seconds to be her Soul Stone Parent over Alexei and even Dreykov. If anyone it should have been Mrs. Romanoff seeing that it's feels she was the only Romanoff who actually gave a damn about her.

clashrendar2025-12-28 09:46

Dreykov was more like her father, unfortunately. That villain was one that had a foot in actual reality, also unfortunately. Lots of rich powerful men trafficking in young girls... they may not have sky fortresses or mind control serums, but otherwise it's not far from our reality (of which some has been in the headlines).

spidervenom6192025-12-29 03:59

Also to add to this, we really don't know Dreykov last name cause I don't think it's General lmao. It might just be Ivan since Ivan is very common Name In Russia.

urtseasame2025-12-28 16:05

And she was older than yelana

gochomoe2025-12-28 08:11

Gods Rolodex

ChildofObama2025-12-28 08:11

Since they’re bringing back Steve now,

I hope we get to see Cap returning the Soul Stone and running into this guy again.

TeaThese31632025-12-28 08:15

Because the writers of these 2 movies are inconsistent. They basically just changed how Gamora's introduced in Gotg1.

Better-Snow-71912025-12-28 08:21

No longer the Red Skull, just an instrument of the Infinity Stone.

life_is_a_burner2025-12-28 08:22

23 and me

Keebdaelf232025-12-28 13:42

😂

AJWilson552025-12-28 08:31

It's a movie based on comic books, that's how.

vicboss05102025-12-28 08:31

Writters

Obraxiss2025-12-28 08:41

Another thing is that he calls Clint "son of Edith" and not his father

spidervenom6192025-12-28 09:11

Because Harold Barton was one of the worst human beings alive in the comics and even if he ain't a Drunken Asshole like he is in the comics, he's stop like Bottom 5 when it comes to parents in the MCU for leaving Clint and Edith alone when Clint was a Baby.

Jenkes_of_Wolverton2025-12-28 10:03

Being linked to the soul stone he would have known not to upset Clint like how Valentina did with Bob (that is, Red Skull is now empathic not some soulless monster)

ipodblocks3602025-12-28 08:45

"The Infinity Stones are a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... Unnatural."

Intrepid_Truth_85802025-12-28 09:03

![gif](giphy|60FwidZG6R7Mc)

BlargerJarger2025-12-28 08:45

He was a magic space ghost who knowst.

EcksFountain1322025-12-28 08:46

DNA testing obviously.

Iamjaykrishnan2025-12-28 08:49

"You are not the only one cursed with knowledge"

the_executive_branch2025-12-28 11:37

Legit, I really don’t want to know. People want a detailed explanation and backstory for everything these days it feels like. Like, it doesn’t matter.

the_executive_branch2025-12-28 15:08

Also it’s inconsistent because Black Widow was made after Endgame, that’s it.

But as the user above me points out, that’s line is enough

FoxMeadow72025-12-28 17:14

I guess it can be cool to have discussions like this from time to time. Tho these should ideally be healthy first and foremost. That said, one could infer from context alone how Red Skull would have this knowledge..

Neveronlyadream2025-12-29 02:07

He's imbued with mystical cosmic energy on an alien planet after being teleported by another magic cosmic rock and he still looks exactly the same 80 years after he disappeared.

I feel like in that context, it's wild anyone would ask how he knew. I though it was kind of obvious.

jojopojo642025-12-29 05:57

Which is fair, but I think we're forgetting about the content of OP's question. It's not how does he know their parents, but rather why does he single out specific persons without any particular convention (why Thanos, who's not a biological parent, why Ivan when he's not a parent Nat ever knew?)

That being said, one can infer that the Soulstone gave insight to Red Skull so that the names he listed would prove the truth and gravity of his words for someone like Clint for example, who didn't know if he could trust him.

RihoSucks2025-12-28 17:25

Yup poking this kind of stuff too deeply is how you end up with midichlorians lol

heckhammer2025-12-28 22:55

YES!

ONE MILLION PERCENT!

ThisIs_americunt2025-12-28 21:46

Everyone is just trying to find deeper lore in what they enjoy but most the time even the writers don't know lol Same shit happens with Rick and Morty sub. People making posts asking why didn't Rick do it this way or why did he let this happen. Its just how the writers wrote it

Montecatinic2025-12-29 17:50

Exactly it's

![gif](giphy|9r75ILTJtiDACKOKoY)

I don't need to know the details.

robodrew2025-12-28 15:30

Yep, the Soul Stone gives people the ability to peer into the souls of others and know who they truly are. I think it's what gave Thanos the direct ability, when connected to the rest of the stones, to erase half of all life.

HotFlameX2025-12-29 00:30

It's hard to decide

hibikikun2025-12-29 03:39

His super power became knowing the answers to all the trivia questions.

HerrPizza2025-12-28 08:50

He reads the Marvel wiki online

ssevener2025-12-28 10:18

Or edits it. Probably has a lot of free time on his hands.

Yuunohu2025-12-28 08:56

I have approximate knowledge of many things, Frank the Human Boy.

tyrwlive2025-12-28 08:56

So then the movie can happen

CoffeeJedi2025-12-28 14:11

Wow wow wow. Wow.

DanteStrauss2025-12-28 16:44

Infinity War would be over real quick if the heroes did a backflip, snapped Thanos' neck and (thus) saved the day.

CoffeeJedi2025-12-28 18:56

So you're saying it would have been "super easy, barely an inconvenience!"?

BaronZhiro2025-12-28 08:57

Social media

Western-Chart-67192025-12-28 09:00

It’s not inconsistent. Red Skull reads souls not biology. He names the person most central to who you are, so Gamora is defined by Thanos while Natasha is tied to her origin, not Alexei.

String29242025-12-28 11:02

Well if you get right down too it, its not even the same actor that played Red Skull in the Captain America movie....

lightningvoid8672025-12-29 08:50

Natasha never new her biological parents so it makes no sense for them to be the most central to who she is.

spidervenom6192025-12-28 09:09

It's whoever the other person sees as their main parent and whoever that person sees who loves or take care (in the case of Natasha and Gamora) of them more. Like Clint doesn't see Mr. Barton as his main parent cause he probably either a Drunken Asshole of a man or left him when he was a baby.

Also this is another reason why I don't think Ivan is Natasha's Biological Father, it's doesn't make any logical sense that Nat would choose Mr. Romanoff over Mrs. Romanoff when she knows in 2023 that Mrs. Romanoff was the one that really loved her and went after her.

ArtistHot67482025-12-28 09:11

this makes me think what happened to red skull after the soul stone was claimed… is he free to roam the world/worlds, does he just vanish and disappear from life, or does he just stay on Vormir

pinguin_skipper2025-12-28 09:12

People must stop saying it is Redskull.
It is only his body being used by some magic.

flintlock02025-12-28 09:28

Lucky guess

extralyfe2025-12-28 09:32

he just kept up with the tea.

bidooffactory2025-12-28 09:33

It was an old party trick he learned in his fraternity years studying abroad.

exaviyur2025-12-28 09:36

Not sure why he needed to treat it like Ellis Island at all.

rtrawitzki2025-12-28 09:44

Ancestry .com

Amazing-Activity-8822025-12-28 10:27

It makes me wonder what would he say to Loki...

spidervenom6192025-12-29 04:01

Loki is 10000% Frigga lmao. Thor's the Daddy's boy in that family, everyone should know this lmao.

SamXTeck2025-12-28 11:17

It’s the stone…. The stoooooooone

Murdocksboss2025-12-28 11:40

I thought daughter of Ivan was a reference to Russia.

Interesting_Idea_2892025-12-28 11:53

Soul Stone tells him as part of how it knows you sacrificed someone you care for

thelessandbestofme2025-12-28 12:02

probably bad writing

Sock-Crusty2025-12-28 12:02

Maybe he's got something like the Shinigami's eyes which from his pov he sees the person's name and parents name and other details on top of the person

Arkyja2025-12-28 12:11

He checks your social media in advance

vroart2025-12-28 12:31

The Black Order are considered “the children of Thanos.” Ebony Maw, Proxima Midnight and so on have reigned terror on the Galaxy for over 10 years, it’s not difficult to get the message from a distant planet “Thanos is coming!”

WORTHLESS13212020192025-12-28 14:03

legend has it if Red Skull reads Deadpools soul, he'll self-destruct

CalvinElliot2025-12-28 14:14

He probably just lied. I don't think the Soul Stone ever had the requirement, I think Red Skull is just a sadistic freak who liked seeing people murder each other for his amusement.

mega5122025-12-28 14:15

You're really overthinking this.

dpittnet2025-12-28 15:04

Because Black Widow was written after Endgame

Voxlings2025-12-28 15:25

*Jesus*

Avengers Doomsday: "How Steve Rogers make babby?"

pkjoan2025-12-28 15:27

He is cursed with knowledge

ubutterscotchpine2025-12-28 15:32

I do think it’s silly considering Natasha never knew who her biological father was and was taken as a newborn, whereas Gamora actually had years with her parents before Thanos offed them. I think it’s just more of a comic-reference than really thinking about how the MCU has played out. Marvel is full of inconsistencies like this.

The_McTasty2025-12-28 15:36

He is a being that is bound to the location that the soulstone is hidden at and is it's designated guide. Dude isn't human anymore and likely has a Dresden Files type [Intellectus](https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Intellectus) regarding things that are his job. Such as the names of those who enter the soulstone's hiding place and the names of their parents.

___Steve2025-12-28 15:38

Space magic and vibes.

pepperbet12025-12-28 15:46

"Daughter of Thanos" is expository, intended to remind the audience her relationship to the guy who's about to sacrifice her. Since the writers established this little thing he does, they had him do a similar thing in EG with Nat and Clint.

It's not that deep.

spderweb2025-12-28 15:51

Wasn't planned, so the writing now looks bad?

bognostrocleetus2025-12-28 15:56

I have no memory of this place.

whenuleavethestoveon2025-12-28 15:56

probably based on vibes

Unusual-Magician-7912025-12-28 16:19

Looks like tony baker

montgomery20162025-12-28 16:21

He's been there since WWII, I imagine he has time to study these things. He probably has some clairvoyance powers. He probably just picked names to fuck with people lol

The_Superhoo2025-12-28 16:31

Who cares

neogreenlantern2025-12-28 16:33

Gamora considered Thanos her father so he went with that.

Nat considered herself fatherless in an emotional sense so Skull went with her bio dad

HypnoKinkster2025-12-28 21:07

Then he said "Steven Rogers son......of a bitch!"

I kinda wish we saw that....

Docrob552025-12-28 21:23

Well if you want to get real granular, Ivan could literally just mean Russia, as in "daughter of russia"
Go a little deeper, and it could refer to not knowing who her father is, as Ivan can be used as the Russian version of John doe (Ivan ivanovich)

Or it could just be something that was needed to convince Natasha that this scenario is legitimate.